“The wrath of the lamb”
Somehow, that just doesn’t do it for me. When I think of lambs, I think of white, puffy creatures who’re afraid of their own shadows and who star in kiddie shows. “Wrath” and “lamb” seem about as related as “vengeance” and “Teletubby”. The phrase pretty much obliterates the entire point you’re trying to make because I’m too busy laughing to hear it!
By now, you’re probably wondering, where the hell I got this from. It was taken from the following video, about 1:05 in. Admittedly, the preacher mostly says “the wrath of God.” At least, heavy editing makes it appear that’s what he mostly says. And if the editing wasn’t enough, a dark, foreboding track – Lord Sauron’s theme from The Lord of the Rings perhaps? – further emphasizes the punishment to come. Really, you can’t make this stuff up (not even you, Dave Barry!).
Anyway, it’s good to see the old-fashioned, fire-and-brimstone sermon hasn’t gone completely out of style, if only to punctuate how bizarre and, well, medieval, is this aspect of religion. But it got me thinking to what extent beliefs in some terrifying, eternal suffering in the afterlife have played in a religion’s relative success. After all, two of the world’s largest religions – Christianity and Islam – both share among the most merciless and boundless conceptions of divine punishment. With those two religions, as the rewards in heaven for belief are supremely enticing (mansions, in the case of Christianity; female virgins, in the case of Islam), are the tortures in hell for disbelief stupefyingly horrific. While some form of reward and punishment in the afterlife didn’t originate with Christianity and Islam, they are pretty unique in positing such an extreme variance in the two possible spiritual existences. Yes, I realize that – at least for Christianity – most teaching on the subject of hell has moderated somewhat, the video above notwithstanding, it’s also true that this is a historically recent development.
It may be a mistake to assume that religious threats constitute a way to reel in new members. From an outsider’s perspective, I’m possibly going to offend someone’s god regardless of which religion I choose. It’s like a game of roulette, except the wheel contains not 38 slots (or “pockets”) but thousands. Good luck with that bet! More likely, as is the case with apologetics, the aim is to keep the sheep from leaving the fold. Our good preacher suggests just as much when he warns that even some members of his audience will not be immune from the main mutton’s mania. As for myself, I’m going to try to get ahead of the game by pouring out my wrath on a plate of lamb kabob.
{ 16 comments… read them below or add one }
There has been a theological move among many of the Christians that I associate with away from the traditional view of hell as “eternal.” Many of us are reconsidering the power of God’s grace, even beyond death, and some of us have concluded that C.S. Lewis got it right in The Great Divorce-hell is only eternal for those who want it to be.
The Wrath of the Lamb…ooh scary…BWAHAHAHA
Hi Robert, I thought you might be interested that I’ve been able to get a copy of David Aikman’s dissertation. I wanted to email you about it but I can’t find your email.
AA, got the files, thanks a ton!
Jeremy,
Good to see humor is not limited to a particular worldview *grin* But on a more serious note, it’s obvious that Christian teaching on a variety of subjects, like hell, has changed over the years. It’s thus reasonable to believe that what passes for Christian teaching today will similarly change in the future. Do you see this as a problem? To be told God intended such-and-such now, then told later that God intended something different shouldn’t give believers and non-believers confidence that Christians are correctly understanding God’s will.
Robert,
You’re very welcome. I’m glad you got them all. Were you able to put the file back together and read it OK?
Robert,
Personally, I don’t have a problem with “new” views regarding hell (although I might argue that these views about hell are not new at all-throughout church history theologians have held a wide variety of views about damnation), because frankly, the Bible is not very clear about the subject.
Christ spoke about hell a lot, but not in any kind of concrete way that I think we can take literally. At any rate, it’s unlikely that hell is the place of “fire and brimstone’ presented in early 20th century tent revivals and charismatic Christianity.
Now, personally I do hold to the view that hell is punishment-and not nice at all-but I recognize that, at least for most of us, the afterlife is not the primary focus of the Gospel. Instead, the point of the Gospel is that you and I have an opportunity for relationship with the God of the Universe.
Hey Robert,
To be honest, hell is a periphery subject and open to debate (at least around a vast majority of Christians). You get your fundamentalists, of course, who will call you a heretic even if you accidentally spell Jesus’ name wrong… but that doesn’t mean that what they think is what the majority of Christians think — or have thought — throughout the years.
Ah yes…TRUE CHRISTIANITY ™
versus
Whatever the unwashed and uneducated believe in.
Whatever.
Awesome–I can feel a cynical, “let’s mock the Christians,” rant coming on–makes me feel like a great human being.
@Brian
Ah yes,
CLOSED-MINDED CRY-BABY ATHEISM (AKA I’m just angry at God and the world and hate everyone but refuse to admit it).
versus
A thoughtful discussion with some historical study, philosophy, and a good ol’ debate.
Hmmm… (wondering which side Brian sits on).
Ryan: why not both mockery and debate, depending on mood? Our Host certainly provides erudite background. I admit that my comment was an intemperate reaction to a too common excuse for Christianity
Whenever the horrors of religion are brought up, including the terrors and destruction and lack of justice in the “Holy Bible” and Christian history and actions, the response is always “Well….”MY kind of Christianity doesn’t believe in this.”
Why is liberal Christianity any more correct? How do you KNOW that, other than a warm and fuzzy “feeling” that you tie to the Holy Spirit or the Bible. Of course, the fundie nuts also believe just as strongly, and with as much Biblical support, that they are following the direction of the Holy Spirit, too.
Besides, why is it being a “crybaby” to point out that Jehovah is a right ol’ horror? What is wrong with “hating the world”? Isn’t that what you are directed to do? And, your God certainly hates his creation-or at least the vast majority of it that will not kow tow in the absolutely precise (but very very vaguely defined) way that He demands.
Brian,
You seem to be jumping to false conclusions here. Neither Ryan, nor myself have pulled the “that’s not real Christianity” card. What we have said is that there is not a clear consensus among Christians about the afterlife. That’s the only claim that we’ve made.
Perhaps you should go dump all your anti-fundamentalist anger on a fundamentalist who is actually defending hte claims that you are attacking.
Perhaps I am misreading you here, but you are still making an argument that there are “liberal” (and, I would agree) superior forms or schools of Christianity. My main point is that these liberal schools or forms have no more validity than the fundamentalisms we all dislike.
Hey Brian,
Well, there are also certain extreme forms of liberal Christianity too that don’t resemble anything we may call Christianity. There are obvious extremes on either end.
And there are some great thinkers throughout Christian history that deserve some credit. Many of them also show us that you don’t have to be a liberal or a fundamentalist, but most of the time you can be something inbetween or really just enjoy your own journey without needing to worry who is right and who is wrong. To be honest, the liberal/fundamentalist thing seems to be a trend in the USA, whereas the rest of the world things appear to be different. Coming from South Africa it looks like things are a lot more about who’s side you are on in the US side of the world, whereas here guys are more relaxed and all about discovering truth together.
I’ve lots to say about this and don’t want to bore you. I could say that I believe in the strength of community, which – in this respect – means that I think God kept some things vague so we could work together to discover what they mean and what we should do about it. Western culture is sharply individualistic and as a result it has caused a great deal of segregation, with people sitting in different camps on all ends.
To cut a long story short, with the danger of moving off topic, my main basis for believing Jesus is the very strong argument from the angle of history for His resurrection. I’ve seen arguments against it and they just don’t convince me as well as the arguments for it. The reason why I’m saying this is simply to place myself and give you a more clear grounding of the factual side of my faith (in response to your “warm and fuzzy feelings” comment).
Also, it is a sort-of response to your Jehovah is a horror comment, as Jesus represents who God is clearly, as far as I’m concerned (hey, if a guy really did get raised from the dead I would say He has the right kind of resume).
And as for mockery… ha ha… well, two can play that game!
“And as for mockery… ha ha… well, two can play that game! ”
Yes, but not everyone should. The guy holding two pair probably shouldn’t mock the guy with a straight flush, so to speak. This, for instance:
“CLOSED-MINDED CRY-BABY ATHEISM (AKA I’m just angry at God and the world and hate everyone but refuse to admit it). ”
Probably punched you in the rhetorical nads more than it did anyone else.
You’d think that logical fallacies like the “no true Scotsman” fallacy would eventually fall to the wayside over time, but then you realize you live in a devoloped country with a horrible education system and churches that teach belief is more important than knowledge and….Voila!
A little mockery is good for you every now and then. Laugh it up.
You know the “no true Scotsman” fallacy was created by Anthony Flew right?